In Thinking Through Bug Out Firearms, I suggested criteria for choosing weapons you might want to have if bugging out. My personal choice was for a carbine in 5.56mm or 7.62x39mm rather than a battle rifle. At the time I was leaning toward the (still) yet to be released to the public SIG516, and decided against the AK platform.
The SIG516, an improved AR clone, was featured in American Rifleman and was pretty impressive. I’m not a fan of gas-impingement systems and the SIG516 is a gas piston operated AR, so all the better. I’ve fired the M-16 and like the design well enough, but am not a dedicated fan. Reliability, accuracy, durability, and feel are all important to me, and let’s not forget price.
The AR of course has a well established reputation for reliability problems. Rabid AR fans will argue about the reliability issue, saying the weapon is reliable if properly cleaned, or if regularly lubricated. To me those are loser arguments; give me AK reliability with no caveats. From what I’ve read, the relatively dirty gas impingement ARs just cannot deliver that level of reliability, but cleaner gas piston operated systems like the SIG516 seem to be able to.
While waiting around for the SIG516 to come out (read someplace that might be December 2010, but might be later), I rediscovered the Ruger Mini-14. I say rediscovered since of course I’ve been aware of it for years, but never took it seriously due to its notorious accuracy problems and very expensive magazines (over $100 for a 30-round, at one time). It did have a tough-as-nails durability/AK-like reliability reputation (gas piston based on the M-14, bolt system based on the Garand), but why pay twice as much as an AK for the same accuracy?
But something changed around 2005-2006 – Ruger finally upgraded the pencil thin barrel and now has a thicker, tapered barrel that, by most accounts, has eliminated the accuracy problems. This improved the well known Ranch model, and a Tactical model with slightly shorter barrel and flash suppressor was added to the line-up. The newer models have serial numbers beginning with 580 and 581.
Nutnfancy has an excellent review where he puts up a Mini-14 Tactical against an AR-15 and an AK-74. The Mini-14 more than holds its own (first part in a series);
Having found the Mini-14 option right under my nose, I took a second look at another rifle I hadn’t paid much attention to, the Kel-Tec SU-16 series, specifically the SU-16C. This rifle is also in 5.56mm, but has a polymer frame, is gas-piston operated, an under-folding stock (can be fired in this configuration), and uses standard AR magazines.
This rifle has real appeal as a Bug out Bag (BoB) weapon that can fit right into the bag. Using AR magazines is a real bonus, since those magazines are plentiful and cheap. From all I’ve read, it’s very ergonomic and accurate. While it is gas piston operated, it hasn’t been around for long enough to judge overall relatively.
Again, Nutnfacny has an excellent review of the SU-16C (and, again, is a series, so watch them all);
If you do a few searches, you’ll find a lot of opinions out there about the Mini-14 and the SU-16C. Unfortunately, a lot of those opinions are grossly uninformed. Some are have never fired a Mini-14 or are completely unaware of the improved versions, but will still talk trash. Some will do the same about the SU-16C because it has a polymer frame and is so inexpensive (relatively).
In both cases they may be talked poorly about because they aren’t ARs. The AR is a fine weapon, but AR snobs have issues admitting any other rifle compares. You’ll have to sift through reviews and message threads to find input from those who’ve actually fired the weapons or who are judging fairly based on all information available.
As mentioned at the beginning of this post, I have a few criteria for judging between platforms, based on many hours of sifting through comments, reports, and reviews from those who’ve used one or more of these rifles;
- Reliability: Mini-14 comes out on top, AR gas piston models next, and not enough information to rate the SU-16C yet.
- Durability: Mini-14 again, followed by the AR. The SU-16C is polymer so probably won’t hold up as well over time.
- Accuracy: More expensive ARs have the edge here, while the newer Mini-14s will be on par or better to the lower end ARs. The SU-16C likely is at least equal to the Mini-14 in this category (better than the older Minis though).
- Price: The SU-16C can be had in the $550-600 range, the Mini-14 for $600-800, and AR gas piston operated models for $800+. ARs generally also require additional sights.
- Feel/Style: This is completely subjective. I like them all, but prefer the “real rifle” feel of the Mini-14.
- Magazines: AR magazines (aluminum) are cheaper and lighter, and go for $10 and up. On the other hand, Mini-14 magazines (steel) are heavier but stronger and go for $20 and up. Advantage AR.
- Parts: AR hands down. There is a nascent Mini-14 parts/upgrade market, but the AR market is very well established.
- Field Stripping: There are all reported to be easy, with the SU-16C perhaps to a slight disadvantage.
I think the SU-16C is a good choice, especially if you need or really want a rifle that will fit into a backpack or other small space. And for those most comfortable with the AR platform, no reason not to go that way.
But after going through all of this over the past several months, my group is planning standardizing on the Mini-14. We were going to wait on the $1,300 MSRP SIG516, but with the Mini-14s improved accuracy and decades proven relativity and durability – at half the price of the SIG516 – the decision practically made itself.
Mini-14′s are good guns. I’ve used a few including an older one and even with that one the accuracy wasn’t that bad.
I’ve always shied away from military looking stuff, figured if I had to look like I was loaded for something it would be better to look like I was loaded for deer or pheasants than humans. I think a ranch rifle or mini-30 would fit in with that idea. They look more like sporting arms to me.
The guys at gunblast.com have reviewed a few of Kel-Tec’s guns and have liked them and the SUB2000 seems to get positive reviews everywhere.
One thing I saw during the Clinton gun ban is that magazines for widely issued military pattern weapons remained available (though of course they went up somewhat in price) while mags for other weapons, particularly non military pattern ones got very expensive or virtually unobtainable.
You could get mags for an AK/ AR/ FN-FAL or a Browning HP/ Beretta 92 series but not for a Mini 14 or a Glock/ Sig at a halfway sane price. However if you are willing to throw down a few c notes now that issue is largely mitigated. I find the Mini 14 a pleasant rifle to shoot though less accurate than the AR platform. Really not a bad choice all things considered.
As for the SU-16C. I have no experience with these. My initial concerns are about reliability and accuracy. Not so sure they don’t fall closer to the fun cheap plinking carbine than a quality defensive rifle.
Michael,
I do like the look/feel of the Mini-14 (a better name for that rifle might have been something like the “M-14C”). Not sure I’d want a Mini-30 due to the round, but should fire one! Kel-Tec seems to get consistently good reviews from those who have experience with them. I guess Glock’s have been around for long enough now that polymer shouldn’t be too much of a concern.
Ryan,
Yeah, I got my first AK clone in 1995 (a MAK-91 with thumbhole stock and no bayonet lug) new for $300, and got about 10 extra mags for ~$10 each. It’s my understanding that anything that was already in the country (and there were some big stockpiles) was still good to go for sales.
In the case of the Mini-14, it’s my understanding that the then head of Ruger, Bill Ruger, decided to limit “hi cap” magazines to LE several years before the Clinton gun ban, which caused magazine prices on the civilian market to skyrocket. Only in recent years has this changed, along with the Mini improvements. Seems to me Bill Ruger made some bizarre business choices with the Mini-14, with the unilateral mag restrictions and not correcting the obvious barrel flaws.
Nutnfancy (great three part review, but longish) and a few others have shown SU-16C accuracy to be surprisingly good. My concern is with the polymer folding stock – might be relatively fragile over time. I’d sacrifice a pound for a good stamped steel folding stock, maybe with some polymer bracing.
On the SU-16C;
3:30, accuracy
14:50, reliability, durability
As for mags the general trend has been that stuff already out there is grandfathered in. If nothing else the sheer numbers of common military pattern magazines already in circulation means they will be available in all but the most insane scenario.
Great post.
I have watched nutnfancy’s video’s on the Kel-Tec. Never fired one – looks like a great deal especially if you are on a budget.
I had an older version of the Mini-14 years ago – and had Ram-Line polymer 30 round maagazines and a Choate pistol grip stock. In working ranges with open sights – I felt it did just fine in the accuracy department. I loved it with that particular stock and was 100% reliable with the Ram-Line mags. The magazines take a little getting used to as far as removal and insertion – not as quick as an AR. But my overall opinion on the Mini is with reliable mags – like Ruger’s – and a comfortable stock – it is a great weapon right on par with an AR.
Currently I have a Stag Arms AR – and love it. With the proper mags – and yes – a little lube once in a while – it is great weapon. I paid $929.00 for it.
If money was no option I would consider the Sig – or even maybe an FN P90. Unfortunatly – money is always a consideration for me.
Note – I would be just as happy with my old Mini and some Ruger mags along with that Choate stock.
Thanks – Rourke
Rourke,
Thank you for the comment. The SU-16C does look like it would be fun, and like you said, good for someone on a budget. I’d like to test one out, but can’t justify the extra expense.
I guess the two main things about a survival rifle is that a) it’ll do the job, and b) you’re comfortable with it. Sounds like you found a good rifle.
Great post guys!
I love my Mini-14 but like my AR service rifle I have/had my doubts about the lethality of the .223 cal. If you plan on going varmit hunting…great. Maybe you can push it up to a deer kill if you’re a good shot and don’t care much about it being a totally ethical shot.
However, if I were planing for possible human knock-down power then I wouldn’t bet MY life on anything less than a 30. cal. I’ve seen 55 gr. fmj .223 cal. being unable to fully penetrate more than four sheet of dry wall. Yeah, I was shocked too. Quite an eye opener.
From my perspective and experience I’d choose 7.62×39 or 308. over .223 if I had to choose one type of round only.
You may not be able to carry as many rounds but the ones that you do carry say “Hello” in a big and final way. IMHO.
Peter,
Thanks for the comment and insight. Personally, I use 55 grain ammo (M193) for target practice, and and saving back a store of steel tipped 62 grain (M855) for TEOTWAWKI situations. While 7.62×39 is much less expensive, it’s also much less accurate at distance. .308 is simply too expensive for most to get any meaningful range time. But your choice should also take into account where you’ll be shooting – long distances like Afghanistan, go with the .308 anyway (or a semi-auto rifle in 7.62x54R), otherwise I’ll stick with domestically manufactured 5.56mm.
In the Army I have never had an M16 not jam at least once. and I kept my weapon clean and lubed. You shouldn’t have to worry about keeping it clean. If all you do is range shooting then it’s fine. It’s accurate but I want something that shoots every time when my life is on the line. I’ll use it if I have it. I fired the AK and don’t like it for accuracy but it shoot’s every time. The mini 14 has the best of both. I’ll use whatever I can get. bolt action lever, auto, whatever. I also agree with Michael with looking too military, sometimes it is better to tone it down. Perhaps a model 94 would be a good choice.
Not sure I would want to give any money to Ruger due to their political views on firearms. That being said, they do make the Mini 14 and their new SR-556 in the outstanding(in my opinion) 6.8mm SPC round. Lighter weight then the .308 and as flat shooting as the .223. Take a look at them. Only problem might be obtaining ammo in a post SHTF world.
I plan on purchasing two SU-16C models in the near future with their new pistol grip package http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATtib_c_n2U at 20:10. We’ll see how they run.
I have a KelTec SU-16C. I’m incredibly happy with it, and can’t recommend it enough. I paid $553 for it at the Rod & Gun club on Post; I guess they would probably be a little more on the economy with taxes. My boss has a Mini-14, and it’s a great rifle too. If I had to stack them up, I’d say they are about equal in accuracy. The Mini-14 is a little easier to maintain until you figure out the SU-16C, but once you’ve broken it down a couple of times, it gets easier. If you’re outside and it’s cold, the SU-16C is still harder, just because it takes a little more dexterity to take it apart. On the possitive side, the design is extremely clean. While you “should” clean it as much as any other weapon… you really wouldn’t have to if you were in a jam. I’d bet the Mini-14 is a little tougher, though I accidentally dropped the Kel-Tec out of the back of my jeep a few weeks ago and it didn’t seem to mind. The KelTec does need good magazines. It will eat anything if you spend that extra $5 on a Bushmaster mag. If you insist on the $7 surplus junk, you’ll probably have some trouble with hollow point ammo, though PSP, FMJ and M855 will probably still sail through. Neither are as good as an AR, but neither pretends to be. Most folks forget that SHTF will be all about weight. Humping an M-4 and all the crap that goes with it is fine when you have a pack full of MREs and a 34:1 logistics system supporting you 24/7; not so much when you’re carrying everything you own on your back; unfortunately the same kinda applies to the Mini-14; it’s a bit heavier. Anyway, I also think 5.56 is a fine round. I’ve heard a bunch of Fobbits complain about it’s “leathality”, but generally speaking the ballistics are all there. It’s not the “perfect round”… nothing is. It’s about balance and philosophy of use. Gitcha a SU-16C or a Mini-14; you won’t be sorry with either.
I own and shoot a SU-16CA, a Mini-14, and a Saiga 223 (sporterized AK variant). All three are semi-auto carbine alternatives to the AR-15 and shoot about 2.5-3 moa if you buy good ammo and shoot from a bench rest. I intended to try all three side-by-side and get rid of at least one, but have not been able to yet. Each has it’s own attractive features. By the time you make the Saiga comparable to the others (sight mounting system, decent stock, etc.) they are all in the same ballpark cost wise.
Some things I will note about the SU-16 is that on the down side it is sometimes too light for rapid follow-up shots compared to the other two. It will jump a bit compared to the others even with basic 223 ammo. Mine shot better after I added a scope, which put on close to another pound of weight, in total. On the plus side it comes with chrome-lined barrel that is already threaded to take attachments, and already has an integrated picatinny rail. I found these features to be better than what the Mini-14 Ranch Rifle had to offer. The newer tactical Mini-14 at least has a flash hider integrated in with the rifle, but the scope mounting system is a bit limiting. Kel-tec’s accessories are also able to meet my meager desires to alter the rifle. For the most part, I shoot rifles as is and try to minimize modifications.
As I said, I’m happy with all three and have decided to keep all three of them for now. I have the most training time with the SU-16, though this is mostly an artifact of the fact that it was the easiest of the three to get configured the way I wanted it (maybe that says something). AR-15′s are fine rifles, I just don’t see the need for one with what I already have.